A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE

Or rather, he riffs on what I opined about, with plenty to get others talking. So...um...talk?

To be honest I'd never heard of this guy before this board. I've not read nearly as much Science Fiction or Fantasy as many of the people on this board (Martin, Tolkien, Bakker, Kay, not much more)

But I got interested in this one because it seemed like the people that liked it really liked it and when you pick up a book and see the praise he's received from other authors, it's hard not to be impressed.

So there are a few Wolfe-related threads but nothing really on this, his most essential work, so I thought I'd throw some thoughts and reaction down. In no way intended to be a Pat, Wert, Stego, DF type of review...I'm just dying of curiosity to see what others liked and didn't like, and hopefully to have some questions answered. So here it goes...(though I warn you reader, the way will not be easy)


The three main fantasy series I've read have quite different structures to me. Lord of the Rings seems mostly linear, going from a starting point to an ending point. I suppose there is the break-up of the fellowship, but even then, it's just split into two lines still leading to the same ultimate place.

Then there's Martin with his mulit-layerd POV style, a total contrast to Tolkien.

I would say Bakker is somewhere in between, sort of jumping around to different viewpoints, but mostly as they see a linear plot.

Book of the New Sun is linear in a sense I guess in that we never leave Severian, our protagonist. But I can't call the structure linear. The story to me is almost set up like a videogame. Severian goes from chapter to chapter and it seems like there is another strange enounter at every turn.

Some of the things I didn't like about this story: vagueness. Wolfe uses crazy vocabulary and that I didn't mind too much, but he doesn't often back it up with enough description so sometimes I really got lost. I've heard people call Bakker difficult. Compared to Wolfe, Bakker is a walk-in-the park (other than perhaps name pronunciation).

I also was at times annoyed by the way certain things seemed to come out of nowhere, like the house in the botanical gardens, or when Severian pulls Dorcas out of the water. I would say that Wolfe redeems himself in a sense in that typically you are eventually awarded with some sort of explanation. The problem is that sometimes that explanation comes 300 pages later and is still vague.

But here's what I liked about this book:

-Prose/style. The way Severian talks to the reader and at times pauses to explain a side note is great. I don't know that it would work in every story but Wolfe makes it work. Like when he pauses to address you as "reader."

He also can write a beautiful sentence, or sentences. One paragraph that I remembered from the beginning of Shadow: "We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that tehy invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of hte Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life--they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of amrs. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to belive that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believee so is to believe in the most debased and supersitiuos kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith inthe efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all."

Whoa. I don't even know whether I buy that or not, but I love reading it. I think there's more good writing in that paragraph than the SoT series in it's entirity.

Another shorter one I like is after Severian has nursed Triskele back to health and he wanders off again: "After that I saw him once or twice a month for as long as the snow lasted. I never know whom he had found, who was feeding him and caring for him; but I like to think it was someone who took him away with him in the spring, perhaps north to the cities of tents and the campaigns among the mountains."

At this point so early in my reading, I thought that the Triskele chapter was simply to demonstrate that this "torturor" Severian had a heart. But of course more comes later.


I could go on with writing samples for ever, so moving on.

I thought the story started off very interesting with the Oubliette, and Thecla, and Severian's subsequent dismissal for being merciful. Then I got a little lost in the Gardens before getting sucked back in in the build-up to the dual with Agilus.

Claw of the Conciliator was where I started to get lost. The jouney with Jonas to House Absolute, the times after wandering with Jolenta and Dorcas...this book got slow.

But I thought it picked up with Sword of the Lictor. Betraying the Archon (for a woman...again), the showdown at the house with the Alzabo, young Severian, the return of Agia, Baldanders as some mace-weilding Ogre-Mage...this one was way more entertaining to me than Claw...or maybe I was just getting more comfortable with Wolfe's style. Wolfe has the capacity for strangeness like the Typhon and Piaton, but then again, who's to say that such a surgery couldnt' be possible someday? (by the way, palm to Piaton's nose to kill Typhon was a great moment).

By the time I got to Citadel, I was well immersed. I knew Severian was destined to become Autarch, but the way it happened shocked me. How he meets the Autarch and tells him how he spent his life hating him...

This was a very difficult book for me in the sense that I usually just get sucked in to whatever I read and I'll look down and realize ten pages are gone. Not here. I had to work for it. But it was ultimately very satisfying.


Now for any of you have traveled this post with me this far, some questions/comments:

I thought for sure Severian was going to eventually find the girl he met in the Triskele chapter at the end of the book. Valeria was it? I thought that even before he went back to that spot. What happened there? And when he said to someone "I desire only one living woman and only one man and I am he" or something like that, who was he talking about? Valeria, Dorcas, Thecla?

Where did Hethor come from? I don't exactly remember when he was introduced to the story and who the fuck was he, other than someone who eventually reconciled with Agia.

Did Agia decide to ultimately give up on killing Severian at the end for some reason or was it because she knew he was Autarch? I thought the "Mercy of Agia" chapter was only saying "mercy for now."

Was Vodalis with the Ascians the whole story? That was my assumption but I'm not positive.

I was surprised to see that the New Sun didn't actually come in this story, nor did we get confirmation that it would come (unless I missed it). I thought Severian was the Conciliator come again but it didn't seem to ever get there.

Ah, I know I have more, but I can't think of them now. I hope there are enough people on this board that have read this trip of a story so a discussion can get going. If not, I enjoyed going back through the story just now.


PS
Terminus Est and the Claw are fucking awesome.

I got bored one day and got to thinking about how Thoros is a servant of R'hllor, and he can resurect the dead. Theres two sides to R'hllor, the light and the dark. What if the Others, being the servants of the dark side of R'hllor, are the ones bringing the wights to life? Maybe this is already known, i don't know, just thought i'd throw it out there.

picked up anubis after reading about it on this forum.

really enjoyed the whole book

later picked up last call and really struggled through it. seemed blah to me, too long, and i just couldn't really get immersed in the character's plot

did i miss something? anyone else feel the same way

granted its been a while since i read these, maybe some discussion will get my mental juices flowing

It's been a while since I thought about Westeros at all but recently I randomly picked up AFfC and started reading a bit. Anyway, I never really understood the significance of the prologue. Usually the prologue foreshadows some event or detail that is revealed later in the book; however this does not seem to be the case here. Or maybe I just failed to pick up something obvious?

Assuming that Cersei gets her trial by the Faith, and her champion, Gregorstein, and that Sandor is the gravedigger, and has become somehow religious enough to want to champion them, but not religious enough to be bothered by that whole "kinslaying seems to be the worst evil in Westeros" thing, why would the FAITH, of all people, with their fanatic High Septon, allow it? Elder Brother seemed to regard the Hound's desire to kill his brother as the worst of his many, many sins. If Sandor is appointed the Faith's champion, and Gregor Cersei's, shouldn't it be the Westeros equivalent of a mistrial or something? It just seems so unlikely that a religious order with a true fanatic in change should allow something that sinful in the name of "justice." Unless... the High Septon allows it, Sandor kills Gregorstein, and then is arrested by the High Septon for kinslaying. I still just see it as something the High Septon would not allow - he's not a good guy, by any means, but he is nothing if not devoted to his religion and it's rules. It would seem that, if Sandor won, Cersei could even argue that the Gods did not have a hand it the trial, as it involved the worst of crimes, and I would think that a fair argument.

Okay, we know Mel is after the blood of a king to create a dragon for Stannis. Would Jon's blood (assuming R+L is true) qualify him for burning to wake the dragon?

(if so, I feel foolish for overlooking this for so long)

Alaxk

if r+L=j is ever going to be proven, the answer is gonna be in L's last words
(promise me) what did she say to have such an effect on ned's life. ned doesn't say 'my son' to cat.
he says 'my blood' which could mean uncle-nephew!!!

theories please!!!!

We learn in A Feast for Crows that Victarion detests his brother, Euron Crow's Eye, because Euron raped Vic's wife or something. Balon exiled Euron but Vic still hates him, but doesn't want to become a kinslayer. Euron has also sent Vic, as the Captain of the Iron Fleet, to steal Daenerys and her dragons from Slaver's Bay to aid Euron in his conquest of Westeros. Victarion agreed to do this, although grudgingly: "But not for you. You stole my wife and despoiled her, so I'll have yours. The fairest woman in the world, all for me."

At this point Victarion wants Daenerys for himself so he can take vengence upon his brother, but I think he might find it difficult to capture her with a few thousand Unsullied surrounding her, and three dragons, and her bloodriders, and Ser Barristan Selmy.

I had another thought though: what if Victarion decides to fight for Daenerys? She needs a fleet, and the Iron Fleet is the best in the world. Victarion wants revenge upon Euron and the Seastone chair, and if he fights with Daenerys then he might just get it.