A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE

The perfect hero or heroine is a type of character that never works well. They're written in to be the righteous opposite of the required villain. To me, they've always backfired. I tend to find myself wanting the perfect character to get, at the very least, a good ass beating. To be well-rounded, of course, I also want my villians to be something more than just evil. But it's the perfect characters that aggrevate me more.

It takes a lot more skill for an author to create a complex, flawed character. That's one of the things I like when I read GRRM, although Dany sometimes skirts a little too close to being perfect.

The 'perfect' characters that bug me the most:

Aenea (Endymion series)
Nicole Desjardin (Rendesvous with Rama series)
Fran Goldsmith (The Stand)

Who's on your list?

A friend recommended the Sword of Truth series. My first thought was "that's a corny name", but I decided to buy a copy of the first book in the series because apparantly it has a huckleberry award or something, so I figured it must be good.

Ye gods, I'm not even finished the first chapter and this is unbearable, I just had to put it away. The main character starts out in the forest, and decides that he hates some random vine he comes across, and tries to pull it off of a tree. Of course, being a woodsguide, he should know that if you tug on a thorned vine, you'll get a thorn in your hand. (He doesn't realize this, so he gets a thorn in his hand). And the thorn also is apparantly alive and is burrowing into his skin, which he casually ignores (why do I get the feeling that that is some sort of evil thorn vine that will have some significance later?). Then he happens to spot something red and chases after it. Then he turns around and sees a woman in a dress being chased through the forest by 4 people who are trying to remain hidden (how could he see them if they are trying to remain hidden, why can't they see him if he isn't trying to remain hidden, and why are they even trying to remain hidden when they could just run up and catch the woman?). He decides to help this woman, and meets up with her (and apparantly she's an expert poker player, her expert poker-face being pierced only by the poker-eyes of the protagonist, who can read everything about her from a casual glance) and they flee the 4 men together, who eventually catch them. Then there is some thunder or whatever, and all of the baddies get kicked off the cliff... then the girl tells the protagonist that she's so lonely because she has no friends...

that's where I put the book down. Jesus... is that what passes for literature? I could write better than that when I was in Grade 8.

Does it get better? Or should I just donate that book to the library and let someone else dredge through that?

Tyrion is one of my faverate Charicters BUT I have read nothing that leads me to believe that he is more then a dwarf that can play the game with a bit of sucess, and no where do i read (in the books) that he will be the third head of the Dragon

A pivital person in the series that will continue to do what he does but a True Ruler i just dont see it. Is there is proof the other way and i missed something?

Gonna start Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut, get this, I never ordered it, the ultra cute Librarian must have dropped a few lines and ended up oredering it in for me instead of my Stego top picks, but oh well, always wanted to read him, just not yet.

Anyone else ever buy or get given a book you had not intended on reading and it turned out okay in the long run?

I hope I'm posting this in the right forum and I hope this isn't considered a spoiler. Anyway, I was surprised to see people hadn't started talking about the latest from GRRM's livejournal.



I hope it's Dany marrying Quentyn Martell but it could be someone marrying the Sailor's Wife for a night. Stannis would consider Theon the rightful heir to the Seastone Chair so perhaps he'd marry him off to someone of his choosing if he got custody of him. Or maybe Selyse dies and Stannis marries Melisandre. Of course weddings and marriages never go well in this series and I want to know who died.

Hi there,

I was finally able to get a copy of Tolkien's latest from HarperCollins Canada for a giveaway. So it's now up for grabs!

Check the blog for the details!

Patrick

I just finished this book last night and it is really haunting me. The book is about a man and his son going south on a road in a post-apocalyptic world. It was a very dark book but I found it very moving. I can't stop thinking about it.

The prose was sparse and plain yet the relationship between the protagonist and his son was very real. I don't believe I can think of any other books that better describe the bond a father has to his child. It was very moving and I found many times where I had to put the book down because I was getting too emotional.

The hard part of this book is that the world is completely bleak and without hope. It was really difficult to immerse yourself in this book because the world was so believable and unpleasant. I don't put too much stock in awards, but I can see why this won the Pulitzer Prize.

Anyone else have any thoughts/opinions?

It said I could post about comics so here goes! (Apologies if there is a thread already here, I had a look but couldn't see one...)
I've just started reviewing the graphic novels for my Blog but have been reading these for a while. I'm a sucker for anything with zombies in it, not just for the gore (although that's great) but also for the often overlooked study of human nature when placed in a situation like this.
'The Walking Dead' series works for me on both levels and I'm in it for the long run. Has anyone else read these comics and what did they think?

With the release of Spider-Man 3 right around the corner, I began to think about all the various Superheroes I have seen or heard of across the years. It was at that point that I realized that for every Spider-Man or Batman, you have at least ten other morons who are about as about as effective as Aquaman. In short, most superheroes are lame.

This is the thread where you can list the most ridiculous, pathetic and downright stupid superheroes ever to don tights. And yes, this category can also include heroes who were deliberately created as stupid just as a joke by their creators.

This post, since it is in the literature forum, is naturally about heroes found in comic books. Afterall, that basically where most superheroes were born. But since superheroes span other mediums, and I think it would be just spam to start an identical thread in the Entertainment forum feel free to toss in some prime heroic losers who can only be found in movies and TV as well.

First of all I would like to nominate the entire Legion of Super-Pets :
The alien creatures known as the Brain-Globes of Rambat decided that, in order to succeed in their plan to move Earth to their own solar system, they must defeat Superboy. When they are unable to gain control of Superboy, they summon Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl of the Legion of Super-Heroes from the future and mentally command the trio to capture him.

After Superboy is defeated, the Brain-Globes of Rambat release their hold on the Legionnaires. When they notice that the Brain-Globes cannot control animals, the Legionnaires gather Krypto the Super-Dog (from Superboy's present), Streaky the Supercat and Beppo the Super-Monkey (from Superman's present), and Comet the Super-Horse (from a few weeks in Superman's future) to battle the aliens. The pets defeat the aliens and are named the Legion of Super-Pets, the animal branch of the super club.

Next on my list in Dogwelder. Created as an intentional joke, Dogwelder's sole )and horrific) superpower consists of welding puppies to bad guys' faces.

Matter-Eater Lad deserves a mention as well. His superpower is his ability to eat anything and everything. As the linked website explains:

"Matter-Eater Lad comes from the planet Bismoll. Gradually, over a period of eons, microbes on that world made all food poisonous. As a result, evolution there transformed the inhabitants so that they could eat anything - glass, metal, chemicals, etc. - without being harmed in the least!"

In 2966, Matter-Eater Lad tunneled his way through tons of earth to eat his way out of Nardo's stalag of space. Later, after a nuclear ray reflected off of Superboy's chest and hit him, his metabolism was slowed down drastically. The excess energy could not be stored properly and the result was that his cells expanded greatly so that he looked like a "captive balloon" (AD 344/345). Several months later, Matter-Eater Lad's slower metabolism continued to work and so he had managed to reduce his weight somewhat but it wasn't until he drank Dr. Zan Orbal's instant metabolic-enhancer serum that Tenzil could quickly dispose of the stored energy and return to his normal self again (AD 351).

Super Green Beret. Whenever mild mannered teenager Todd Holton dons his magical green beret, he is instantly transported to the steaming jungles of Vietnam where he gets to fight the Vietcong with his magical powers.

Skateman: (on his superpowers) As well as being an expert skater, Billy also knows some martial arts, and is a Vietnam veteran; this makes him a dangerous opponent in a fight. As well as being fond of kicking people in the face with his skates, Skateman also wears a utility belt containing a variety of weapons.

Turbo Teen. Watch the youtube video. It explains it all.

fully expecting this thread to languish and die like it's predecessors have, but on the off chance that there's some interest, what say for a pint at a local watering hole in a couple weeks? I'm thinking George and Dragon (or the George and Dragon Two in Ahwatukee) or Rosie McCaffery's; or some other analogue of an English pub. The George is my faroritest place to do karaoke because they have a "no country music" rule.

thoughts? comments? suggestions? I'm open to Tempe, but all things being equal college bars aren't my thing.

I couldn't find a specific thread addressing the change in the faith since about halfway thru AFFC where the common people "sparrows" throw out the old church clergy and elect their own. Needless to say before this occured all the high churchmen where relatives of the ruling lords and parroted their decrees however criminal.

For all the horrible and stupid things that Cersei has done, by allowing the faith to rearm and revive its militant orders she has perhaps unwittingly done one of the few "good deeds" that we have seen of any lord or lady in these books. By fighting those orders the latter Targs brought their own doom down, as there was no longer any possible "sanity check" for the lords and they all just kept getting more vicious and insane. The smallfolk no longer had any voice whatever aside from turning bandit or forming a mob to murder their sweet lords. I'm not saying the militant orders won't become just as corrupt as the lords soon but it should put a check to monsters like Ser Gregor, Lorch, and those types even if they might not dare to openly oppose monster lords like Tywin or Boltons. I'm sure they would gladly supply rope for their hangings.

That they would seize sweet Cersei and prepare to put her on trial suggest they might be made of stern stuff. Of course, if Randly Tarly gets there with his army he may just storm the sept and behead all the priests and priestess and sparrows or at least give it a good try. Whether he succeeds is an interesting question. I would love to see him torn apart by a mob. Few people could deserve it more than perhaps sweet Cersei.

Alright noble goats and valiant lemmings, it's time for a new thread. And since I started it, I get to name it. So there.

Don't forget the rules:

1)No flaming

2)No personal attacks on individual Tairy fans

3)No trolling or inciting others to troll on other boards

Have fun!!!

I have heard a lot of people on these boards say they can't stand Brienne's chapters in AFFC. I've had a theory as to why that is for some time.

Now first let me say that this theory will certainly not apply to all readers who dislike Brienne's POV -- in fact it may not apply to anyone. And I don't believe this idea 100% myself. But I'm going to roll it out there and see what people think.



To begin with: as I understand it, most people dislike Brienne's chapters because they think they are boring. (Other people don't like Brienne herself, but that's less relevant to this theory of mine.) Nothing happens with her, they say. And it goes on, and on, and on, and takes up space, meaning that AFFC was too huge and had to be broken up, depriving them of their beloved Jon/Tyrion/Daenerys/whoever it is that they actually want to read about. You get one hint about Sandor's fate and then she's strung up by the BwB, and that's all that happens in a dozen chapters. What's the point?

Well, it's entirely pointy, as someone might say. It's just not a point we like.

Brienne's chapters are about the aftermath of war, its ugly side, its realities. She wades through a war-shattered land, she sees a countryside devastated and its people slaughtered. Think about it: she's wandering in search of a girl separated from her family, which has been destroyed by the fight -- this is a very common activity after a war's over. She has to fight the typical detritus of war (Biter and Rorge) and gets maimed in the process. She doesn't succeed in her mission and eventually she's captured by brigands -- also typical.

Here's the part we don't like: those of us who read heroic fantasy for the battles and the duels don't like to be reminded that there's no real glory in them. We don't like to be told that people actually suffer. After all, in war everyone suffers, but we fantasy war lovers don't like to be told that. Our dreams get shredded by the cold reality of it.

We all wept at the Red Wedding because the good guy had his head handed to him (almost literally). Brienne's chapters are saying, "Look, there are Red Weddings everywhere. War is all about that kind of grief. It's just you don't often see it. It doesn't make it into the books, and people forget that that's what war is: death and pain. Well, for once it is making it into the books. See how you like it: this is what comes from your wish for war, though you didn't know it."

The simple character of Brienne is set up to point to this. There's a stereotype of warrior women in fantasy: tall, blonde or raven-haired, beautiful, busty -- dangerous and sexual all at once. But that's not real. Brienne is realistic, a woman whose beauty is all in her idealism and loyalty, a woman whose skill is the product of a strong body and long training.

Brienne is no more comfortable in her chapters than we are reading them, because her illusions are suffering too. Her idealism is eroding under the reality of the aftermath of war.

Think also about this: when we first met the Brotherhood Without Banners, they were a noble cohort, trying to protect the ordinary folk from exactly this kind of reality; they fought Gregor and they tried to deal with the Hound because the Cleganes stood for the horrors of war, the gangs of marauders and the freelance fighters who did more damage to the country than the actual armies did. Beric and Company chose no side, saying they fought for Robert when Robert was dead and gone. And we loved the BwB for what they did.

But how do we see them in AFFC? They've lost their way; Beric is dead and the group has become focused on revenge alone. They've lost their neutrality, they're not much better than the people they once fought. They're coming into line with how the world really works.


So: we dislike Brienne's chapters because we had an illusion in our minds, an illusion not unlike Sansa's view of knighthood and chivalry. Then we read Brienne's chapters and we see reality, and feel its harsh breath on our faces just as Sansa came face to face with Sandor and saw a real warrior. We were unsettled and displeased, and we said that we were bored... but in truth we just wanted our comfortable dreams back, the dreams where the good guys win and nobody dies except the villains.

Well, folks, that's fine. Hold on to your dreams. Keep on trying to escape the real world; I understand entirely, I do it too. But don't try to do it with Martin's books, or you're missing the point entirely.

First, background and the basic question (for those who don't like long posts)

From aCoK on Podrick Payne's been a small question mark in the back of my mind. Seemingly a minor character, young and crushingly shy, he nonetheless has played a critical role several times (e.g. saves Tyrion twice, tracks Brienne, saves Brienne). What he does seems at odds with what we know about his background and abilities, which isn't much.

In aFfC Pod becomes Brienne's squire. In the light of Brienne's seeming connection to Duncan the Tall and the Dunk and Egg background (Duncan the Tall, later LC of the KG and his squire, later Aegon V) this would seem to focus an interesting light on her squire.

(I am assuming for the purposes of this topic that Brienne is indicated as Duncan the Tall's descendant (the shield, her height and fighting ability, her dedication to knightly ideal and oathkeeping). I'm also assuming that she and Pod will survive the attempted hanging. If you want to discuss either of these last two subjects please find the appropriate topic. I want to focus on Podrick Payne here. )

The question:

Is Podrick more than he seems and/or is he destined to become a significant character in the series. If so, who or what?

One obvious consideration, especially in the light of the Dunk and Egg story, is that Pod is Rhaegar's son, Aegon. It would be a perfect parallel, almost too perfect, and I'm personally undecided about the whole Aegon survived thing, but it seems like an obvious first theory. His age seems way off (variously estimated as ten and twelve) and we aren't told his coloring (that I've found). According to GRRM Aegon had Targ characteristics. We know Pod is small, thin, with lanky hair.

So, comments, theories, bring them on.

Following you'll find the main evidence for Pod's "oddness" and accomplishments if you want to read more.

II: 175 - "a boy of twelve...so shy he was furtive"

II: 642 - "On the left, Tyrion was surprised to see Podrick Payne, a sword in his hand. 'You're too young,' he said at once. 'Go back.' 'I'm your squire, my lord.' "

II: 643 - "Pod galloped beside him, slashing down at every foe they passed." (think about this one!)

II: 648 - "...Ser Mandon Moore vanished with a shout and a splash...someone was kneeling over him [Tyrion]...'Be still, my lord, you're hurt bad.' A boy's voice...thought Tyrion. It sounded almost like Pod."

II: 700ish - can't find exact quote but Pod credited with getting medical help for Tyrion

II: 708 - "It was Pod on the bridge of boats, the lad saved my life." [Tyrion POV]

III: 736 -739 - It's Pod that Tyrion sends for when he needs witnesses and Pod who finds and manages to bring Bronn.

IV: 134 - [Brienne runs into someone] "The collision knocked him off his feet...He was only a boy; a scrawny lad with straight, thin hair and a sty beneath one eye...Outside the gates this morning, that was where I saw him, she [Brienne] realized. He was riding the piebald rounsey."

IV: 199 - [Pod] " 'I have a longsword. I can fight.' Not well enough. Brienne did not doubt the boy's courage, only his training. A squire he might be, in name at least, but the men he'd squired for had served him ill."

IV: 199-200 - "She had gotten his story out of him in fits and starts on the road...His was a lesser branch of House Payne, an impoverished offshoot sprouted from the loins of a younger son. His father had spent his life squiring for richer cousins and had sired Podrick upon a chandler's daughter he'd wed before going off to die in the Greyjoy Rebellion. His mother had abandoned him with one of those cousins when he was four...Podrick did not remember what she looked like. Ser Cedric Payne ...nearest thing to parent...seemed to Brienne...that treated Podrick more like servant than son. When Casterly Rock called its banners, the knight had taken him along...Ser Cedric slain...boy had attached himself to a fat hedge knight named Ser Lorimer the Belly...Ser Lorimer...discovered with a salted ham...Tywin Lannister chose to hang him. Podrick had shared the ham and might have shared the rope as well, but his name had saved him. Ser Kevan Lannister took charge of him, and sometime later sent the boy to squire for his nephew Tyrion."

IV: 294 - [Brienne, having ordered Pod to stay put at the Whispers, is facing Shagwell and Timeon alone] "Choose one, Brienne told herself. Choose one and kill him quickly. Then a stone came out of nowhere, and hit Shagwell in the head. Brienne did not hesitate. She flew at Timeon." (note stone thrown accurately and effectively by Pod)

IV: 296 - "Podrick had climbed the fallen wall... a fresh rock in his hand. 'I told you I could fight!' "

IV: 641 - "All she could see was Podrick, the noose around this thin neck, his legs twitching...Pod was kicking, choking, dying." (Lets hope not or this whole topic is rather pointless. )

I'll be in Nashville working a contract job until around mid June.

Anyone want to meet for drinks/dinner etc?

Hi my friends, here are the first five page preview of The Hedge Knight II: The Sworn Sword, enjoy

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=109327

More cool wallpapers added on the Dabel Bros. site, enjoy

http://dabelbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=7647#7647

Welcome everyone, to the Tuth about DUNE!! (waits for nonexistant applause to cease) Thank you. Now, as anyone who has read the entire Dune series (the original, not the prequels, which are pretty good IMO) knows, Dune sucks.

Yes. It sucks.

In fact, the last five books (count them; a six book series and five sucked) weren't worth the paper their written on, and same goes for the last couple chapters of the original, which was shooting for Best Book Of All Time before finishing with and end crappier than The Pearl (any of you Jon Stienback (sp?) fans out there wont agree, but come on) The rest of the series ranges from the barely readable to the utterly despicable. God Emperor was especially pathetic.

Now of course, comes the defense of Dune (which actually sounds better as a book titile than the book titles themselves!!). It is a portrayal of the future, its deep, its not supposed to be readable its supposed to make sense (which I actually have heard!!) well, so what. Foundation does the same thing buts it's readable. Same goes for alot of good sci-fi and even fantasy wriritng. What makes Dune so special?

Sorry in advance if this has been covered before, but I didn't see anything in a search.

There are a lot of interesting reunions that I'm looking forward to in the books to come. Many of these involve the Starks of course. For awhile one that I was anticipating the most was Catelyn and Jon Snow, for her to know how wrong she was about him. After she become uncat tho, that seemed to lose alot. Outside of the Starks there are a lot of very interesting possible reunions also, Gregor and Sandor if they are both still alive; Jaime and Cercei; Jaime and Briene; Tyrion and Cercei; Tyrion and Jon; etc.. etc. Which one do you want to see the most?

For me, while some of the above would provide some very interesting reading, I would vote for Jon and Arya because of their relationship in the beginning and all they've gone through since.

Although being stiff, rigid and over formal Stannis has captured the affections of a fair number of readers. Currently at the Wall with around 1500 men, an uneasy alliance with the Crows and possibly some loyalty from the wildlings he seeks to settle in the gift can Stannis survive?

With the others on one side and his much better positioned rivals still down south can anyone imagine a scenario in which Stannis survives the series or even next few books? Also ........would he bend a knee to Dany should she come. With his propriety over heir's legal claims to the thrown I tend to think he would unless he believes the claim (he almost didn't support his brother in) is legal through right of conquest.

Are we also sure Stannis and John will end up foes? It looks as if the have different priorities for now but........when the Others arrive in droves will that change?

Just my questions regarding Stannis.

Zeee-Chief

We have a significant advantage compared to the actual characters in the books. We actually see inside Cersei's head and her plotting is obvious to us. Is it possible that she has fooled them and that her downfall is completely her own doing?

As we know, Samwell has seen Coldhands. Samwell did not recognize him as Benjen Stark. He did, however, recognize some of the other Night's Watch members after they'd been turned into wights. But maybe Samwell wouldn't have recognized Benjen Stark anyway. Still, when Bran first layed eyes on Coldhands, Samwell was there. And Bran did not scream out "Uncle Benjen!" or anything like that. Bran did not recognize Coldhands at all. He would have recognized his Uncle Benjen.

Hi all! I know I've fallen off of the radar lately, but it's for a good reason. I'm in a play!
I've got two (minor) roles in SMC's production of "The Scarlet Pimpernel"

Our last weekend of performances is this weekend. We've got 8pm shows tonight and tomorrow, Fri 4/6, and a 1pm matinee 4/7 and 4/8. Last chance to see singing, dancing, ridiculous-costume-wearing Aghrivaine. Eh, who am I kidding, you can catch that at any con. But this time, it's on stage!

Iseult caught opening night, and raved that it was one of the finest pieces of theatre she'd ever seen within 20 blocks of the ocean. If you come, stick around afterwards, and we can go out for drinks!

Tickets and info at: Main Stage Productions

I've been lurking for a few years and don't recall this thought coming up but in his last Feast Chapter Jaime thinks he needs to pry Tommen away from Cersei. It is a long shot but as things go to Pot for Lannister/Not-Barreathon, Jaime should escape across the Narrow Sea with Tommen and raise his son to be the man he never could be as King. It won't happen but in my mind it would be about the best way for the somewhat redeemed Jaime to finish his story; being a real Father even if his child is the get of incest.

Zeee-Chief

New month, new reading thread. You know what to do.

Latro in the Mist by Gene Wolfe, comprising Soldier of the Mist and Soldier of Arete. Very interesting and read like historical novels. Narration was a little difficult to follow at times due to the narrator’s injury, however, it did make the books more interesting.

The Ghost Brigades by John Scalzi. A worthy sequel to Old Man’s War, Scalzi kept the universe interesting by creating a new character for the novel and furthering the background. Looking forward to the third book.

The Android's Dream by John Scalzi. Guy farts his way into a diplomatic incident, what's not to like? I really enjoy Scalzi's brand of humor. This book is separate from his Old Man's War universe and isn't as good, but worth reading.

Before They Are Hanged by Joe Abercrombie. Others have said the sequel is better the TBI itself and I agree. More character development and faster pacing help as well as Abercrombie's willingness to poke fun at fantasy cliches. A must-read.

Going to be starting on The Name of the Wind next.