A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE

Hi there!

I have five copies of the two first titles of Far Territories, a new imprint from Subterranean Press that will publish former limited editions in trade paperback format. Their first two titles are Tad Williams' Rite and Elizabeth Bear's New Amsterdam.

Feel free to look around the blog, for I have ongoing giveaways for books by Erikson, Esslemont, Ford, Willet, Ruckley, and Sapkowski.

Check the blog for all the details!

Patrick

I am slogging through a set of books that have really disappointed me. The author has been lauded as one of the best in the western genre, and one book in particular is award winning. But so far... for me... just meh.

I am talking about Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove Series. I read all four books in story order. They were published as Lonesome Dove, Streets of Laredo, Dead Man's Walk, and Comanche Moon. The story order is DMW, CM, LD, SoL.

I suppose, if you read just Lonesome Dove, it is an OK story. It makes for great TV. Not so much as a book. However, Streets of Laredo is about twice as long as it needs to be. Dead Man's Walk and Comanche Moon are both full of Call and McCrae wandering the plains of Texas starving to death and shooting at Comanches.

My main issue with the books are a total lack of continuity. There are story elements that are KEY to the stories in CM and DMW, but in LD those same elements are totally disregarded, or written over. For example Gus marries. In DMW and DM his wives both die within two years of marriage. One is skinny and the other is fat. In LD both his wives are said to be fat and he was married to one of them for over 7 years. Another matter is the manner and location of a main character's death. In CM, Maggie dies of TB in Austin. In LD she dies an alcoholic in the town of Lonesome Dove. That completely throws me out of the story when I come across something like that. It makes me wonder if McMurtry actually wrote DMW and CM.

Another thing that bothers me in SoL is that characters who were Main POVs in LD were killed off screen in one or two sentences by freak accidents. I think they deserved a better send off than that, even if they aren't part of the current story.

Sigh... I am about 3/4 finished with Streets of Laredo... so if you know how it ends, please don't tell me. I am going to try to finish it tomorrow.

What a let down. I think I must be the only one in the world that didn't love LD. The reviews for it are great... and it won a Pulitzer.

Lacy

Despite seeing The Bright of the Sky on several Best of '07 lists, I've yet to see too much a mention here...so here goes.

After reading a few reviews and seeing key phrases like "fantasy influenced sci-fi" and "space opera" I decided to give The Bright of the Sky a shot last month and was very pleasantly surprised. Of course, everything has it's flaws (random POV switching, inconsistent descriptions of alien races, etc) but I found them to be relatively minor gripes and the story itself had me pretty engrossed. The characters were interesting, in particular the "main" character's daughter and her side story...I could read an entire novel about just her situation and be content. Kenyon even managed to throw in a big surprise moment that got a GRRM Red Wedding'esque reaction from me (gape jawed, eyes wide open, re-reading the passage several times just to make sure I really read what I had just read)

Add all of that to superb world building, and inhabiting said world with unique and interesting cultures (again, the main character's daughter comes to mind here)

Then tonight, after reading the commentary chapters from GRRM's Dreamsongs Vol I, George said something about his sci-fi experience that kind of tipped me over the edge and made me want to read the next installment of The Entire and the Rose immediately, so I went out and picked up A World Too Near...which reviewers so far seem to unanimously agree that is improves on Bright of the Sky. So I'm pretty excited.

Has anyone else read these? (or any of her other material? I'm interested in that work as well) I always enjoy reading this forum's opinions.

(My apologies for not giving a very in depth review, I'm sure I'll write one at some point...but for now I just wanted to get the ball rolling on a discussion)

One thing I've learned from Martin is the importance of heirs. As many conflicts as there are between completely separate and distinct houses, the driving forces of many plotlines are the heirs to different seats of power within the houses, especially when the line is otherwise weak. The Lannisters have many cousins, but the Starks have basically none, and this made Robb's choice of an heir so interesting.

Inheritance is a device that can shift a lot of power to otherwise innocuous players. The most obvious is probably Harry the Heir. He was a knight and a playboy, but he may all of a sudden become a Lord of a Great House of Westeros.
The line of succession can also take a lot of power away from players who seem more powerful. Joffrey's position of power in the line of succession made Robert dispensible to the Lannisters. Black Walders ambition makes everyone before him in line significantly weaker than they are by rights.

Another thing I've learned from Martin is that thinking a character is too valuable to kill off is naive in the extreme.

What if Dany dies, perhaps at the end of ADwD or sometime in TWoW? Who gets the dragons? Where would her khalasar go? And most importantly, who is Dany's heir?

I have to decide on which series I will read after The First Law books, and these are the two I narrowed my long list from. My main concern is A Prince of Nothing will be more difficult than enjoyable, but that's what I said before going into AGOT with no fantasy experience. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hey I got my passport today and everything is approved so me, my roommate and another friend are heading to Scotland from Jun 27- Jul 5 this summer!! I'm very excited this is my first trip to Scotland.

We are flying to Dublin, then taking the train and ferry to Scotland. From the ferry landing we are going to Edinburgh to spend a couple of days. Then travel north to the Highlands to the Inverness area.

It would be great to meet any BWBers in those areas.

Any tips of must see things and advice on places to eat and stay would be appreciated.

Kelly, my roommate, inspired this trip by getting accepted in a study aboard program, she's going to spend the next month in Ireland doing historical research.

Well I've recently gotten really in to Civilization 4 (great game, by the way), and I was thinking that wouldn't it be great to play it on Westeros. So I got to thinking. But first, I have a few questions and concerns.

1. Does anyone know of any Westeros themed mods for Civ4?
2. I've never made a scenario in Civ4, so don't expect this soon.
3. I don't even know of a lot of the things I want to do are possible.

And now, for my thoughts.

1. Make a map of Westeros, terrain first, then add in cities.
2. I have a few thoughts based on houses (civilizations in the game)
a. Just have the great houses (I'm not sure whether or not I want to include Targaryen, but right now I'm thinking yes)
b. Have every house, and see if I can make a wayto have the small ones be vassals of the big ones, but I just dont think that'd work well in Civ
3. Make multiple leaders for each of the great houses (I'm mostly going for recent, successful leaders; meaning no Lysa Arryn; and mostly only actualy rulers, meaning no Oberyns or Blackfishes, at least in the beginning)
a. Stark: King Robb, Lord Eddard, possible Brandon the Builder
b. Tully: Lord Hoster, (not sure if I want him or no, but:) Lord Edmure
c. Arryn: Lord Jon, Lord Protector Petyr Bealish (don't know much about House Arryn)
d. Greyjoy: King Balon, King Euron
e. Baratheon: King Robert, King Stannis, King Renly
f. Tyrell: Uhh, Lord Mace? (again, another house I don't know the history of)
g. Targaryen: Not sure yet....
h. Lannister: Lord Tywin, Queen Regent Cersei, (if I go with historical figures) Lann the Clever (or is it Lann the Trickster?)
i. Martell: Prince Doran (all I know of)
4. Make several scenarios
a. Simple, Civ style, pick a house, build!
b. Pick a house, and start around the time of RObert's Rebellion, and try to capture King's Landing
c. Maybe the War of the Five Kings
d. Aegon's Conquest?


ANd that's all the time and thoughts I ahve for the moment. I'm extremely open to suggestions. In fact, I am in need of them. I will post more thoughts later on.

Just picked this up last week 100 banned books Censorship Histories of World Literature

Nicholas J. Karolides
Dawn B. Sova

A few of my favorites

All Quite on the Western Front
Animal Farm
1984
Doctor Zhivago
The Grapes of Wrath
The Adentures of Huckleberry Finn
The Autobiography of Ben Franklin
To Kill a Mocking Bird
Diary of Ann Frank (apparently because it was a "real downer")

My absolute favorite was Fahrenheit 451.

Anyway. Must be an old edition Harry Potter is not on the list.

One book I was surprised not to find on the list is The Turner Diaries the bible of the American Neo-Nazi movement.

Read any of these guys? How do you feel about censorship?

In a genre that faces constant ridicule and belittlement from the literati, the SF&F's ability to ridicule and damage itself never ceases to amaze me.

Fantasy Book Spot is running a 'Book Face-Off' competition and random chance has thrown Paul S. Kemp's Forgotten Realms novel Shadowstorm against Nick Mamatas' Under My Roof. The response from the authors was, erm, interesting:



Mamatas touched on one of Kemp's bugbears, the immediate dismissal of tie-in books as derivative crap based on nothing more than narrow-minded perception (for example, the same perception that causes the literati to dismiss all SF&F as derivative and crap). Kemp's response:



Ironically I've never read either author (although obviously I have both of them on my LJ feed), and I'm sure they're not taking it seriously (this is hardly the Hugo or anything). What was amusing was the narrow-mindedness displayed by Mamatas and his commentators towards a fellow author toiling the same genre. Interesting to see who wins and if this reignites the debate about the legitmacy of tie-in fiction.

I'd really welcome recommendations here, my little brother is 14, and a young 14 at that. He's still quite naive, and it's not just older sister talking here!
What he's read recently, and enjoyed:
The Harry Potter Series,
The first book of "His Dark Materials": he really seemed to enjoy that.
The Lemony Snicket books.
Eric (Faust) by Terry Pratchett.
The Darren Shan books, sorry, don't know the names.

I really, really want him to enjoy reading, I'm just not sure what to get him next. I've bought "The Inferior", but haven't gotten around to reading it yet and he doesn't get it 'til I've read it! Does anyone have any ideas what might be good?

Thanks so much for your help

SF Signal's Mind Meld seeks the answer.

Thoughts?

Don't know if there will be much interest in this, but it seems like a lot of people here have a working knowledge of Nietzsche (from the discussion in the Buddhism thread in GC), and I've never had much of a chance to read and discuss, so I thought I'd start a thread and see what happens.

There's a link to the full text of Twilight of the Idols here.

For some context, here's the wiki.

Let's start with the Preface and go from there if anyone's interested.

For me, the Preface is a good example of everything I can't stand about Nietzsche. I guess I just don't get it, and it seems like nothing more than a long-winded way of saying that we're going to dig out and expose the false premises that modern culture rests on.

Here's some basic background on Nietzsche's core philosophy. I'm summarizing from Wiki (naturally, anyone should feel free to disagree with the CW):

(1) Nietzsche wants to completely break down our conventional systems of morality - he thinks original moral systems were based on "master-morality" where goodness is equated with the characteristics of the strong, and that we've since adopted a "slave-morality" (as in ancient Greece) where goodness is equated with the characteristics of the weak (as in Christianity). Most would argue that Nietzsche favors a return to "master-morality."

(2) God is dead, i.e. there is no longer hope of any universal perspective (this is called perspectivism).

(3) The will to power motives all human behavior, not the will to live, or the will to be happy (I always think of this energy bar my professor had labeled "Will to Power Bar.")

(4) The ubermensch is the person we should all strive to be. He lives in this world (not in hope for some other world) and he creates new values from a love of this world.

(5) The eternal recurrence is a thought experiment. Your life choices should lead to a state where you could be comfortable with every aspect of your life playing out over and over in exactly the same way for all eternity (some people think it's more than a thought experiment, but I think they're crazy so I'll leave it to someone else to describe the alternative).

Also, I'd say in Twilight of the Idols the focus is on (1) and (2).

ETA: Also, we're throwing a lot of technical terms around, and a lot of stuff from other philosophers, but a philosophical discussion should never be a name dropping game. If anyone wants an explanation of something, please ask. The terms are just shorthand. And please don't feel like you shouldn't contribute if you're not inclined to throw out the original Greek or don't know what prostitute Nietzsche got syphilis from, etc.

From the website: www.pcon.ie



Guests include: Charles Stross, C. E. Murphy, Juliet McKenna, Diane Duane, Peter Morwood and many, many others (including me). There will be Poker, there will be Panels and all the usual stuff that dreamz is made of.

Ok, I'd like to hear some recommendations for books with, what you guys would consider, some of the best battle sequences ever written. I've already had Durham's The Pride of Carthage recommended to me. The books can be set in any time period, fall under any genre, etc. However, I am most interested in fairly realistic depictions of medieval and pre-medieval scenes of carnage and bloodshed. Again though, I am looking more at the writing itself than anything, so anything can really go. So. Can anyone help me?

Holy mother of Segal!

Mack Maloney is the unlikely moniker of what appears to be the greatest author of all time, who has written such vital novels as Death Orbit and Return of Sky Ghost. His homepage delivers up vital 'Mack-Tolds', facts about the great man's life, including:



and



As another fellow devotee relates:



Oh my God, the site is awesome. You can get bumper stickers of the great man's work, or order his latest CD (the Mack is in a band as well, oh yeah).

And, lest we doubt Mack's greatness:



As far as I can tell this guy is a genuine author. I thought I'd stumbled across some kind of Gareth Marenghi-style viral pisstake site, but nope, it's the real deal.

I'm actually really hoping his books now turn out to be awesome.

I'll be out visiting SF in April - anybody up for meeting up at a bar Thursday night on April 10th? If that doesn't work for anybody, I can come up with other times/dates, but my schedule's a little more restricted the other days I'm there.

Also, I have no idea where to go, but I'm staying at the Hilton by Union Square and would like to go somewhere close with a patio for smoking if possible.

Anybody? Bueller?

I don't think anyone posted these links before:


Watcher of the Dead by J. V. Jones

http://jvj.com/ivprologue.html


ANd Neuropath:

http://www.fantasybookspot.com/node/2515

Apologies if this subject has already been breached...I'm just excited at seeing the new cover

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/...5045&sr=8-3

Is this definitely the UK cover though? I assume so, and if not, it's a very good fake.

Brasyl won. Nice shortlist, though, making its win perhaps a bit more meaningful?

So, how would you have ranked these?

Dear Bros,

as many of you have heard, there's a fundraiser going on in SF fandom to support Terry Pratchett's donation to Alzheimer's resesarch in the UK. Since Terry made the donation, fans across the world are joining together to matching funds for both the UK and US foundations that fund research in the causes and treatment of Alzheimer's and other brain diseases.

You can read more about this effort at:

http://www.matchitforpratchett.org/

We're not asking for much, a pound, a couple of euros, a fiver, what ever you can spare to help.

One of the contributions we are making to the effort are 7, that's right, 7, rare and collectible books, thru the current Match It for Pratchett' auction on eBay.

You'll find all 7 of our donations at this link:

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZbenveniste

the books were put up on eBay by our good friends Deb & Mike, they photgraphed and listed the books since I wouldn't even know where to start with such a project.

Five of the books are from George's personal collection, two are bound galleys of a couple of very interesting non-RR novels.

If you have a few gaps in your GRRM collection, or want to find out what those two mystery titles are that I just alluded to, click the link and start bidding!

You all have my express permission to spread this information far and wide, we would like to see a strong presence of fandom in this effort.

Many folks have written about how much Terry and his work have meant to them. I cannot find the words to express the joy and laughter and pleasure he has given me over the last 25 years.

But I can say thank you to him this way, by doing what he has done, and contributing to research to find ways to treat and prevent Alzheimer's and other brain diseases.

I hope you will join us.

thanks,

Parris

Well, book size anyways Here are some interesting things from ©2008 releases that I have received/bought that I've noticed:

I have 38 books that have a ©2008 date. Of those, the page numbers break down as follows:

8 are under 300 pages, with the majority of those being between 100-220 pages.

15 are 300-399 pages in length

11 are 400-499 pages long

3 are 500-599 pages total (I'm counting one 660+ page ARC in this category due to the page estimate printed for the final release and considering the huge spacing/font size of this ARC)

Only 1 is over 600 pages (the US edition of Peter F. Hamilton's The Dreaming Void)

Out of those that are in the last two columns, all of those are parts of multivolume works, and three of the four (two Abercrombie, one Ruckley ARC) are epic fantasies while Hamilton's is the beginning of a space opera trilogy, if memory serves. Only 9 out of the remaining 34 are parts of series of three or more books. Just an interesting observation based on a limited sample size.

Look at your book releases for the past year or for this year. How many of them would fit into each of the categories I listed above? Just curious to see if the copies that I'm receiving (I've only bought one out of those 38 releases) are markedly different from those of the majority of people here. I suspect it might be, since publishers are not sending me many epic fantasies these days.

I want to read the first law books as soon as i finish my current series, the problem is I don't like those "comfort reader" books. I like the good ole paperback books. Will the first law series ever be in the normal paperback? The Blade Itself has been out for quite a while in the US and I still haven't seen it in the normal (cheaper) size.

Thanks

Saw this linked to on Hal Duncan's blog and thought it'd make for a nice discussion piece, if people are interested.

I am sure that this has been covered b4 so feel free to rip me, but I think this board has new members all the time and someone should take the time to tell them what not to read.

Avoid:

Paolini (Inheritance Trilogy)

Horribly written, cliched, and is a complete ripoff of other fantasy series such as Star Wars, A Wheel of Time, and LOTR

A Wheel of Time

A good idea but wayyyyyy tooooo looonnnngg and the middle books are all filler.

A Sword of Truth

This should be obvious if you are on this board. This is pretty much the anti-GRRM.

Others?

Because I always wanted to start one of those threads.


You know the rules, fellow lemmings:

1. No personal attacks.

2. No trolling.

3. No feeding the yeard.

Enjoy the thread!


Thanks to Moosicus for the title.

Pretty self explanatory, I'm in the mood to read some gritty-noirish crime fiction. I'm looking for a book that contains copious amounts of bullets, bourbon, cigarette smoke, badass-ery, and dangerous dames.

Sadly, I haven't read alot of books like that. Where do I start?

I was considering picking up the crime fiction series by Dan Simmons, heard good things about it (Hardcase, Hard Freeze, Hard as Nails.)

Otherwise theres these Richard Stark books I've heard of, and of course the Dashiel Hammet and Raymond Chandler classics. I haven't read any of those, but I'm looking for something a little more modern and gritty.

Any help would be appreciated.

Over a year ago, I made a post pointing out that the broad strokes of Cat’s and Cersei’s life were very similar. The thread seems to have disappeared, but the main points of it were
They both married a great lord, but not the one they thought/were intended to.
They both outlive their children (or think they did)
They both drown in grief (Cat thinking when she sees herself in Renly’s armor, Cersei’s prophecy)

Lately, I’ve been thinking a little more about the similarities in the various story arcs in the series. One of the things in particular that struck me on a recent re-read is the phrase that came up often early on that “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.”

The Liddle that Bran meets on the road says something to effect that when there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden could walk from the neck to the wall in her brides dress and not get molested. Now that the Starks are gone, the north is a dangerous and deadly place. Obviously the import of the statement was that without a Stark to keep order, things will fall apart.

But the exact same thing has happened in the south. Keep in mind that the north is as big or bigger as the south. With Robert and the Targs gone, and no strong ruler, the river lands and the areas around Kings Landing have gone hostile an dangerous. Consider Astopi (?). After Danny left it, it fell to a butcher king.

Consider Danny and Cersei. Both were essentially sold off to a powerful lord to curry favor. Both seized the reins of power after their husbands death. Obviously their stories diverge there, but that’s exactly what I’m getting at: variations on a theme. Danny succeeds and Cersei fails.

Furthermore, consider the vague similarity between Un-Gregor and mindless Drogo. Danny wanted Drogo to be healed and restored to strength, partly to protect her, and appeals to blood magic. Qyburn is using blood magic (presumably) to make an undead fighting champion. Variations on a similar situation.

Consider Rob and his queen, and Danny and Jorah. Both are relationships between a king/queen and someone of a lower caste, both involve true love, both involve treachery, and both end up wrecking havoc in one way or another.
Consider Sandor and Brienne. Neither are “real” knights, as they’ve never taken holy oaths, or “felt a sword on their shoulders.” But both of them are the truer exemplars of knighthood than we witness in all the hosts of the world. But the reason neither of them are knights are different, as are their reasons for their behavior.

Consider Brienne and Sansa. Sansa’s head is full of songs and glory, with no understanding of the practical nature of the world. Brienne’s head is similarly full of nonsense about true knights, and keeping oaths. It takes prolong exposure to Jamie to open her eyes, which coincidentally probably moves her towards being more like Sandor and his view of knights.

Jamie and Bran. Getting crippled opens their eyes to other possibilities and alters them in profound ways. Bran wakes up to his innate potential, where as Jamie’s is taken from him

Ned’s fear of a repeat of the slaying of innocent children should Robert learn the truth.

The Kings Guard vs. the NightsWatch. Ever notice the similarities between their oaths? Not to marry or father children, the essential loss of family identity….

Jamie / Cersei vs. Loras / Magery. The Brotherhood Without Banners vs. the Bloody Murmurs. Do I even need to mention how dangerous weddings can be?

The list goes on and on.

Anywhere you care to look you can see the same idea played out with variations both minor and major, with repercussions that span the gamut from total success to total failure.

Hi a very respecful ALL.

I think there were a few topics like that before but I would like to start one myself and define a few rules with a few examples.
I am interested only in completely finished fantasy series. It my quirk, I do not read unfinished series. Please, do not suggest unfinished series.
I will give you a few examples of what I accept as finished and unfinished series.
I will edit the first post from time to time to make a definitive list.

Examples of finished series:
Harry Potter
The Great Book of Amber
Farseer/Liveship Traders/Tawny Man/Soldier Son

Examples of Unfinished:
Obvious ones:
Wheel of Time
A Song of Ice and Fire
Malazan Book of the Fallen

Less obvious but unfinished nonetheless:
The Prince of Nothing - this is very important - the trilogy itself is finished but there are a lot of cliff-hangers and the story is unfinished.
So, even if a particular trilogy is finished but leaves a lot of unanswered questions that will be solved in the upcoming books, then please do not add the series to this list.

==============================================================================
So, let's start:

- J.R.R. Tolkien

- The Great Book of Amber by Roger Zelazny
- Changeling Saga by Roger Zelazny

- Harry Potter by J.K. Rowling

- Farseer by Robin Hobb
- Liveship Traders by Robin Hobb
- Tawny Man by Robin Hobb
- Soldier Son by Robin Hobb

- Memory, Sorrow & Thorn by Tad Williams

- Series by David Eddings

- The Black Company by Glen Cook

- Riftwar Saga by Raymond E. Feist
- Serpentwar Saga by Raymond E. Feist
- Empire trilogy by Janny Wurts and Raymond Feist

- Cycle of Fire trilogy by Janny Wurts

- Crown of Stars by Kate Elliott

- The First Law by Joe Abercrombie

- Urth : Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe
- Book of the Long Sun by Gene Wolfe
- Book of the Short Sun by Gene Wolfe
- The Wizard-Knight by Gene Wolfe

- The Dark Tower by Stephen King

- The Axis trilogy by Sara Douglass

- The Chronicles of Narnia by C. S. Lewis

- Lyonesse by Jack Vance

- The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson
- The Mordant's Need duology by Stephen R. Donaldson

- Earthsea by Ursula Le Guin

- The Tam“r trilogy by Lynn Flewelling

- Stormbringer by Michael Moorcock

- The chronicles of Lankhmar by Fritz Leiber

- Rai-Kirah Trilogy by Carol Berg
- The Bridge of D'Arnath by Carol Berg
- The Lighthouse Duet by Carol Berg

- The Orphan's Tale duology by Catherynne M. Valente

- The Baroque Cycle trilogy by Neal Stephenson

- The Dark is Rising series by Susan Cooper (YA)

- The Abhorsen Triology by Garth Nix

- The Book of All Hours duology by Hal Duncan

- The Book of Words trilogy by JV Jones

- The Engineer Trilogy by K.J. Parker

- Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay

- His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman

- Cley by Jeffrey Ford

- The Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander
- The Westmark Trilogy by Lloyd Alexander

- Novels of Tiger and Del (Sword Dancer Saga) by Jennifer Roberson
- Chronicles of the Cheysuli by Jennifer Roberson

- Rose of the Prophet trilogy by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman
- Sovreign Stone trilogy by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman
- Dragonvarld by Margaret Weis

- Dragon Prince and Dragon Star trilogies by Melanie Rawn (both trilogies continue the same story)

- Tir Alainn trilogy by Anne Bishop

- A Kingdom of Thorn and Bone by Greg Keyes (finshes up with the release of the 4th book on the March 25)

- Aegypt by John Crowley

- Quest of the Riddle-Master by Patricia McKillip

- Kushiel trilogy by Jacqueline Carey
- Imriel trilogy by Jacqueline Carey (will be completed with the release of the last book on June 12)
- Sundering duology by Jacqueline Carey

- Hound and the Falcon by Judith Tarr
- Avaryan Rising by Judith Tarr

- Damiano(A Trio for Lute) by R A MacAvoy

- Coldfire trilogy by CS Friedman

- Book of All Hours by Hal Duncan

- Ile-Rien by by Martha Wells
- Fall of Ile-Rien by Martha Wells

- The Khaavren Romances by Steven Brust

- The Everness duology by John C. Wright

- Word and Void trilogy by Terry Brooks

- Black Magician trilogy by Trudy Canavan

- Eiden Myr by Terry McGarry

I want to exclude the discussion of TG in this thread because of the way the lemmings seem to take over once they smell blood.

I wanted to know which fantasy series or multiple series that you all STOPPED reading on purpose. I know sometimes you just never get around to finishing something especially if it wasn't completed when you started.

Here is an example:

I stopped reading Wheel of Time in the middle of Path of Daggers: I stopped because ultimately I felt that Robert Jordan was milking his readers and taking waaaay too long to publish books that weren't that complex in their own right (nothing compared to GRRM). I stopped reading Path of Daggers because it was too slow, I vowed to never finish the series because I thought Jordan was an ass hole. To my dismay I never gave up on Goodkind (but this is not a thread about TG: however, if you wanted to add on a blurb that you gave up on him in your post that would be cool too)

I tried to use the search function but it didn't work as well as I'd liked. Im sure he is mentioned in one of those 30 page threads. Anyways,

has anyone read this book?
A freind recommended it to me and is letting me borrow it. I want to know some opinions about it ahead of time, but please NO SPOILERS

Well I will be in Boston from April 3rd for a few days. I don't know if there are any Boston posters here. I am just wondering what people think are fun and interesting things to do there. Also if anyone would like to meet up for a coffee or a drink there more than welcome.

Conor.

To get the message across:

This novel is more awesome than most. Be careful before spoilerising yourself. It is worth reading unaware of what is about to happen.







Seriously, think twice before reading this thread if you haven't read the book.

hurt by fire. non-human. why not?

“Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.” (ACOK 75)

I think that is bull. I think Renly was the king who would have brought the realm together and ruled it intelligently and effectively for the rest of his life. Robert was the frontman, the meathead who was not worth that much at the end of the day.

Renly lost the war because Stannis and Mel had a power that others didn't understand and couldn't fight. Not because he was, as Donal Noye puts it, "not worth all that much." it was Renly who was prepared to fight the Lannisters, Renly who rallied the south en masse, Renly who sat on the small council for years with some of the smartest men of the age -- Jon Arryn, Petyr Baelish, Varys the Spider -- and Renly who could have brought the realm together and inspired loyalty just as Robert did. Renly was the true steel.

If you disagree, fine. But if you even see a little bit of truth in it, then I ask this: why would geniuses like Littlefinger and Tywin allow a war to start whose only logical end was a huge victory for Renly Baratheon? what had they to gain in the face of Renly's 100,000?

A few magazines and other forums have been doing this recently, so let's go for it.

Rules: only nominate 5 authors. Your first choice will get five points, the bottom one one point and so on. The thread will be ongoing until the end of April or until everyone loses interest, whichever comes first

All science fiction and fantasy authors are eligible, including supernatural horror (Barker, King) and magic realism (Borges, Eco, Rushdie).

GRRM is eligible to be entered. I thought long and hard on this and decided that we have more than enough regular Lit. contributors who are open about the fact that GRRM is not their favourite author (maybe not even in their Top 5). Given that I visit other websites belonging to authors not in my Top 5 either, I don't see it as a major problem. However, when coallating the votes I will also create a 'non-GRRM' list just to see how that pans out as well.

I've been brooding over this one for a while: I don't think Jon Snow is really Eddard Stark's bastard. I've come to this conclusion after re-reading AGoT, and paying special note to the passages dealing with Eddard Stark's conflicting feelings about the boy, AND, the passages in which he remembers his promise to his sister Lyanna. "Promise me, Ned."

The text would have us beleive that the promise Ned made to his sister was to bring her body home to Winterfell, but if that's the case, why is Ned still haunted by the promise even after he fulfilled his promise?

Also in one of the earlier chapters, when Catelyn asks her husband about Jon, he specifically responds by telling her that "He is my blood, that is all you need to know." Why doesn't he come out and say "Son"? To spare her feelings?

Also, in an early Bran passage, Bran recollects his father being upset, and he notes that he thought it had something to do with Jon. Could it be possible that the true shame that Ned feels is his inability to tell Jon and Catelyn the truth? He can't, because he promised his sister he wouldn't.

Jon Snow is the natural son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, conceived in rape, and born in the tower in which his mother would die. The last promise she asked of her brother before she died: Keep my son safe. Don't tell them who his father was.

And the only other living person who would have been there to witness it is Howland Reed. Eddard Stark's closest still living friend, and a character who has been noticably absent so far in the story. My guess: Howland has been absent because he's the last person left who knows the truth of Jon Snow's birth, and he will not appear in the story until it comes time to reveal this new plot arc to the reader.


What do you all think?


***EDIT***

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of the topic. Yes, I probably should have searched first, but it didn't even occur to me that someone else might have already thought of this. (hubris, perhaps?) It hit me when I was reading AGoT over again, and after I told my friends about it I got excited and decided to find a forum online where I could post it! So the only reason I joined these forums was to post my idea and hopefully start some interesting discussion around it.

But it sounds like great minds think alike!

I don't normally read any spinoff novels; the whole idea just doesn't interest me. (Several reasons: I don't want to read a jobbing writer's take on an established universe, I want to see a complete work of creation, I don't trust TV series to contain solid enough backgrounds to make a novel series work, I worry that the franchise sells the books rather than needing any quality, etc...) However, I recently got sent the latest "Faction Paradox" novel for review; after reading a bit of it I had a quick Google and found to my great astonishment that this is a Doctor Who spinoff. This was particularly amazing because the writing was of a much higher quality than you'd (or I'd, at least) expect from a spinoff, and the whole thing was more than good enough to work in mainstream SF, away from the weirdy enclaves of Doctor Who fanfic.

So, for anyone that knows about these things, is this an anomaly? Or are the other Faction Paradox novels good as well?

If you have read ASOIAF, and also read science fiction, could you recommend a series that may not be written in the same POV style as ASOIAF (that would be a benefit though), but that is as large in scope, with tons of political intrigue, betrayals, murder, and wars. I don't want a series that has a great first book, but then bogs down in later books. The series (or stand alone), should be consistently good.

Of sci-fi, I have read and loved The Hyperion Cantos (Not Endymion yet), and Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead.

I'm actually not sure if this should go in GenChat or here, but it's a book, so the hell with it.

I bought this book, Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond, recently. It's won a Pulitzer Prize, and an Aventis Prize for Best Science book. I've only read a bit of it, and it's certainly interesting, but I was wondering what the opinion of it is here, and in the intellectual community. I had a guy rip it to shreds during a conversation the other day, and it got me thinking on whether or not Diamond is qualified to say any of the stuff that he says, and that sort of thing. I'm only about 60 pages in, so I don't think I'm really qualified to comment yet.

Also, just let me know whether you liked it or not as a read.

I'm in the middle of Dragons of Winter Night, having finished Dragons of Autumn Twilight (The first DL book I've ever read), and I looked at the cover blurb on my copy of Dragons of Spring w/e it was, and it ssays that it's the last book in the Chronicles series.
Now, after I read those, do I have to go to the Twins cycle (IE. Twin's test (or test of twins), twin's fate (Or fate of twins), and another thing with twin's in the title (Or, title the in twins)) or can I read Dragons of Summer Flame immediately without having to go to the library?

I just bought both since I finished A Feast for Crows and now have to wait with the rest of you for A Dance With Dragons. ASOIAF was my first fantasy series, and after reading about both series, I figured they would be good books to try. Which did you prefer and why? I'll eventually read both, but I am asking which to read first. Whichever one I start, if I like it, I will probabl read the sequel before starting the other one.

Thanks

The third book of the Rigante series picks up some seven hundred years after the second one. All of the characters that you had known and grown familiar with are long dead and gone, and we are starting off with a whole new set of characters.

One of the things that I noticed first about this book was that we are now dealing with weaponry involving muskets and pistols. Granted, the books with Jon Shannow involve guns as well, but the setting with Jon is different enough so that the weaponry doesn’t stand out. Having spent two previous books with the swords that are the mainstay of so many of Gemmell’s works, the introduction of guns was something that I considered unusual.

The situation for the Rigante has changed in the last several hundred years, and for the worse. They are a conquered people, under extreme oppression. Despite being attacked multiple times and defeating the attackers each time, the Rigante never reduced the attacking civilizations to rubble. This tendency, among what are probably other reasons, has finally come to haunt them.

The oppression of the Rigante by the Varlish is reminiscent of various similar, real-life subjugations of vanquished people by conquerors; pick whatever one you happen to think applies.

What is painfully ironic and typical of occupying forces of this nature is that enough time has passed so that the two people are merged to an extent that the lines are blurred between Rigante and Varlish. If enough time was allowed to pass, eventually the amount of Rigante blood versus Varlish in an individual would have become more ludicrous than it already was.

One of the more interesting changes Gemmell does in this book is to have the Moidart, arguably the main villain of this particular book and certainly the person most directly responsible for the subjugation of the Rigante in this area of the world, be a descendant of Connavar and Bane, the “heroes” or at least protagonists, of the first two novels. This is done via a portrait of the Moidart’s great grandmother having the dual colored eyes that signify the line of Connavar. That, and the sigil of the Moidart’s house is the Fawn in Brambles that Connavar saved.

I consider the Moidart to be one of the better characters Gemmell has come up with, even though in this book he is, at best, an antagonist. He is intelligent, cold, and calculating. He is a contradiction; a person who is capable of subjugating a people, and yet is a painter of scenes of true beauty.

The only time that he is shown in this book to act with any emotion is when he is killing Lanovar, the person who is the nominal head of the Rigante rebels currently plaguing the area. Lanovar is under the incorrect impression that the Moidart is going to be smart and realize that peace and quiet are preferable to continuing strife and mayhem between the Varlish and the Rigante. What Lanovar is apparently clueless about is that, in this case, the Moidart is willing to take the chance of going against the king’s will.

The reason for this is because while you never really get told specifically, the overwhelming implication is that Lanovar has been dallying around with the Moidart’s wife. I cannot recall if it is mentioned in Stormrider whether the Moidart truly loved his wife, but even if he did not, he is certainly NOT the type of person to just let something like this go unanswered. And while Lanovar’s reasoning is sound about the reasons for peace, considering the intelligence of the Moidart, it is not so hard to imagine the Moidart being able to come up with some sort of plausible explanation for the king and be able to get his revenge.

In any case, the Moidart succeeds at killing the man who cuckolded him. One wonders the extent of the ruthlessness of the Moidart towards the RIgante prior to learning of his wife’s infidelity with Lanovar, compared to afterwards. Could he have been different? Water under the bridge, now.

I came across a conversation that have been discussed in other Gemmell threads that bear mentioning. The conversation is between a character called Mulgrave, one of the more philosophical members of the cast that you meet, and Gaise Macon, the son of the Moidart.

“We are such fleeting creatures, here for a heartbeat and then gone forever.”
“Why do you say that with a smile?”
“It makes the evil of men more bearable to know that it is largely of no account.”
“If that be the truth, then the good that men do is also of no account.”
“Now there is something worth debating, sir.”

Debate material, indeed. More later.

I wasn't supposed to write this review tonight, but I'm stuck indoors while a blizzard rages outside. So what the heck, right?

Though not SFF, I feel that R. Scott Bakker's Neuropath should please the speculative fiction crowd. Indeed, such readers habitually relish challenging reading experiences, and Neuropath is that and more!

Right off the bat, let me begin by saying that Neuropath is the most disturbing book I have ever read. Yes, I had been forewarned that it was a very controversial novel by Bakker and those who had read the manuscript. But hearing about it and experiencing it firsthand are two different things. This one went beyond my expectations.

Neuropath is a psychological thriller that will challenge you in ways that will leave you thinking long and hard after you put the book down. Its principal premise is that there is no such thing as human free will, that consciousness as we know it is illusory. As a result, Neuropath raises a constant stream of troubling interrogations, which in and of itself is even more perturbing than the thriller itself. All the more disturbing is the scientific tone used by the author to support his claims, that "believe what you want if it makes you feel better and helps you sleep at night, but science brakes for no one"tone. As Bakker explains, science doesn't give a damn about what human beings want to be true.

Tom Bible's life takes an abrupt turn for the worse when his old college roommate from Princeton shows up at his doorstep. To his dismay, he discovers that Neil, who was supposedly teaching neurology in California, was in truth secretly working for the NSA, cracking the minds of terrorists. The next morning, as he reaches his office at Columbia University, Tom is informed by FBI agents that Neil has cracked and gone AWOL. Moreover, Neil is now using his skills on innocent civilians to control their brains. Before he knows it, Tom is caught in a terrifying downward spiral as Neil kidnaps and mutilates people with a connection to him. He manipulates their brains, leaving them altered in ways that will shock some people. The FBI needs Tom to help them understand what Neil is trying to accomplish. Slowly, Tom will realize that it's all related to what they used to refer to as the Argument. Distraught, it suddenly dawns upon Tom Bible that Neil might have been right all along. . .

Those who like their psychopaths crazy and unpredictable will undoubtedly appreciate Neil Cassidy. Indeed, that man makes Hannibal Lecter look about as frightening as Sponge Bob. That guy is a scary freak, no doubt about it.

Neuropath will challenge your perceptions, your sense of self, and the way you look at the world around you. It draws incredibly distressing conclusions that raise uneasy questions to ponder. Fascinating, stimulating, throught-provoking, tormenting, and downright worrying at times -- Neuropath is all that and more.

A list of about 45 online and print reviewers will receive an ARC from Penguin Books Canada in about a month, and I'm curious to see what they'll think of the book. . .

Check out the blog for the full review!

Patrick

[Edited by Ran: Changed the topic description. We try to avoid such language in topic titles or descriptions, so that a whole sub-forum of the board isn't blocked by aggressive web blocking at someone's school, place of work, etc.]

The first four books all leave off with a cliffhanger to the next book. Each one gives a little taste of the mystery and excitement to com. Like getting the best bj for ten seconds at which point she/he bites off your prick. SOOOO I was wondering what you think in all seriousness what the cliff hanger will be for ADWD?

My theory is we will see Jon going out to meet a mysterious figure at a wierwood tree, who when they lower their hood woven from leaves, will be a slightly older Bran standing taller and smiling at him, saying simply,"Hello Brother."

Warning: this post contains ranting that might border on randomness!

First off, let me explain my history with fantasy-novels.

The first novel I picked up was The Lord of the Rings trilogy when I was eleven, I quickly fell in love with fantasy-novels and after I finished I quickly continued with The Hobbit and The Silmarillion.

Another passion of mine is video-games, and I quickly found my favourite games in The Baldur's Gate series and Planescape:Torment. (Especially the latter is definately worth picking up!) I also like to Roleplay as a count or duke in Crusader Kings. (Which has a very nice ASOIAF mod out, definately worth checking out as well!)

I had a bit of a break from reading after finishing the Silmarillion, and two years ago a friend of mine gave me the Icewind Dale trilogy by R.A. Salvatore, which I had enormous amounts of fun reading for the first time but after two rereads something bothered me immensely about the characters, but I wasn't able to pin it down back then.

Around that time I also bought Neverwinter Nights, it's expansions and later on the sequel, and I had enormous fun with many of the user-created modules, but when I went online that same nagging feeling came back to me, once again I was not able to determine why. The RP sessions I endured in World of Warcraft also had the same feeling to it.

A year ago I stumbled upon ASOIAF by chance and it almost literally blew me away, it just felt so "right" reading it, and I was finally able to understand why I loved it:

With possibly the exception of Jon Snow, all of the novels are practically Marty-Stu-free!

Now I understood why something didn't feel right with Drizzt and his companions, almost all of them were wise-cracking supermen in their respective fields, making almost no mistakes what-so-ever!

It also explained my reluctance with roleplaying in World of Warcraft and Neverwinter Nights, they were all filled with Vampiric half-elf sons of Illidan with a dark and shadowy past or rangers with a cool combover and a dark, shadowy past. Most of these people sported names like "Dante Do'urden" or "Excalibur Soulcrusher" who ALWAYS had to win every roleplaying situation and could therefore be described as Marty-stu-extroadinares.

Before I continue, let me make this clear; I have absolutely no qualms about people who want their character to be special, but the fact of the matter is mostly that the average Marty Stu is never given enough background to account for the fact that they are sporting epic weapons and are scimitarswinging supermen. Those kinds of characters should be reserved for people with experience in roleplaying so that they can make a background that truly fits their persona.

The character I use for almost every RP-occasion is Petyr, a somewhat dimwitted human son of a blacksmith who left his paternal home to pursue a life of adventure, it might be a bit cliche but in my opinion that is how almost every roleplayer should start out, humble.

Who do I blame for this sudden influx of supermen?
I blame your average fantasy novel, which seem to have a cast of heroes capable of any feat at any time at any place, it disgusts me and I hope that more writers choose to go for a more realistic approach, it will truly do both the world of fantasynovels and roleplaying alot of good.

I know that I haven't read many fantasy novels, and that I may sound like a bit of a whiner, I just needed to let this out on a forum that might appreciate my grievances.

Also, this link explains the concept of a Marty Stu, for those of you who don't know.

Discussion or criticism on my rather long rant is greatly appreciated and encouraged!

Edit: Reading back at what I typed this might sound like more of a video-game-discussion than one one literature, but I assure you that literature was on my mind when I typed this, and the game-parts were meant mostly as examples.

This topic might be a bit premature considering Dance is'nt out yet but i was just wondering who the left over POVs are that are going to make it into The Winds of Winter.

From Feast: I'm guessing we will get one Dorne and one Iron Islands character left over. Im going to go with Asha and Arianne. So that leaves us Brienne, Cersei, Samwell, Arya, Sansa, Jaime.

From Dance: Daenerys, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Theon, Quentyn.

I think Theon will survive Dance because GRRM wouldnt bring him back unless he had a purpose. People might want to susbstitute Victarion or Aeron for Asha. Still 14 points of view is a pretty massive number. GRRM could also do some trimming.

I know Theon is uncomfirmed just a guess.

Thoughts?